在刚刚结束的苏富比香港“坂本五郎珍藏中国艺术：早期佛造像”专场中，世界级古董泰斗朱塞佩·埃斯肯纳齐（Giuseppe Eskenazi）以高于估价3倍的950万港币的落槌价，竞得了被人们称为“小飞侠”的北魏造像，从故去的日本古董商坂本五郎先生手中接下接力棒。10月的伦敦天气渐渐转凉，老人赶着10月6日的深夜的航班，带着他的收获离开了香港。
作为全球最有声望的古董商——埃斯肯纳齐，有着异常独特的个人魅力，他有严肃固执，而又时而冒出一些幽默的话语；态度礼貌却有着骨子里特有的傲然；他在拍卖场上一次次以其独到的审美眼光，和对艺术品的魄力刷新着世界纪录。
而这个在拍卖场与收藏界搅动风云的国际大鳄，在对藏品的甄选和购买以及对于画廊的经营，究竟是怎样的准则？他的画廊又以怎样的经营模式存在？此外，是否能有一些可以给后辈从业者借鉴的经验？
带着对国际大鳄的景仰和好奇，三水仓在伦敦埃斯肯纳齐先生Mayfair的画廊里，对他进行了专访，并在第一时间对采访进行了编辑、整理。在与严谨的埃斯肯纳齐先生进行讨论与修整的对接后，在此为各位发布。
三水仓：埃斯肯纳齐家族作为一个家族企业，从上个世纪20年代就开始经营东方艺术品。您和您的整个家族为何会对东方艺术品感兴趣？同时我从一些文章中了解到您和您的父亲在1960年的时候在伦敦开设了办事处，并在英国为米兰的画廊进行艺术品的购买。在那个年代，米兰的审美趣味更偏重于中国的出口艺术品以及一些装饰性的物件，但是您更多的是被早期艺术品所吸引，请问是什么原因让您对他们如此着迷呢？
埃斯肯纳齐：我的公司始创于米兰，这是一个和伦敦、巴黎、纽约或是东京都不一样的地方，正如你所言，当地的艺术市场以装饰性强的艺术品为主。藏家们对于艺术品的消费理念更多的是对于房子的装饰，而不是收藏。自从意大利大使岀使北京后，一些非常有名的藏家开始向藏家寻找藏品。当然这仅仅是一部分人而已，大众依然倾向于装饰性强的作品。这样的情况一直持续到第二次世界大战结束，在二战结束后，埃斯肯纳齐公司变得更加专业化。
当我进入艺术品领域时，我的兴趣点着重于早期的中国艺术品。我对于明代与明代以前的艺术品的热爱，最初是从参观博物馆开始的，可以说相当程度受到了大英博物馆的Percival David（大维德基金会）藏品的触动；同时，我的挚友Margaret Medley，也是大维德基金会藏品展览的策展人，给了我很大的影响。
而后我随着我的父亲在上个世纪60年代来到英国，开始了埃斯肯纳齐家族在英国的公司。从那时起，我们越加专注于早期的中国艺术品——从办展览到出版画册——算是最早一批对中国艺术品进行展览和出版图录的公司。
（五代辽金时期造像，Eskenazi公司1972收藏，现藏于德国科隆东亚博物馆）
那个年代人们多数只对欧洲油画、素描、雕塑之类的艺术品出版图录，比如说亨利·摩尔、培根的作品或是印象派绘画这些。而对于中国艺术品这一领域，最早只有Bluett & Sons这家公司画廊在完成一些图录。我们随后也开始定期地为藏品编撰图录，邀请人们参加我们的展览，并且将作品卖给博物馆。直到今天，全球有超过80家博物馆都有我们所售出的艺术品。我们专注于和学者以及博物馆的合作与工作。
事实上，我们从没有去过博览会，也并没有大张旗鼓地宣扬我们所做的事情。我们可以说是一个规模比较大的公司，但是我们同样是一家比较私人的公司。我们主要与藏家进行交易。同样，我们和远东保持着很好的关系。从最初与日本的联系到后来与香港日益密切的联系，一直到现如今渐渐地与内陆开始建立了联系。
三水仓：埃斯肯纳齐工作在艺术市场的顶尖位置，同时为博物馆以及有眼光的藏家提供藏品。而埃斯肯纳齐的经营范围也涉猎广泛，从早起的青铜器、宋瓷、一直到明清时期的官窑瓷器、家具等等。
其中您在拍场购买的一些艺术品受到了人们巨大的关注，比如这次香港拍卖刚刚结束的“坂本五郎珍藏中国艺术”专场中，您竞得了被人们称为“小飞侠”的北魏造像；更有一些甚至创造了当时的世界纪录，像是元青花鬼谷子下山，以及佳士得安思远专场拍出的小金熊。
您有如此广泛的涉猎，我想请问您个人最喜欢中国艺术品的哪种类型和哪个时期？您在为顾客挑选艺术品的准则是什么？
埃斯肯纳齐：现在公司有11个人，因而不仅仅是我在对艺术品进行甄选，我的同事们也会在他们热爱的专业进行工作。只是很可惜的是，我们无法着手于中国绘画这一部分。因为我们周围没有太多的相关艺术品，也仅仅举办过一两个展览。我们会经营一些当代水墨，不过这一领域是我的儿子在做，我并没有参与其中。
我们的兴趣是从商代青铜器开始，这一块也有很多人在经营。可能，我个人的兴趣是在元代瓷器。它并不是一个广受喜爱的市场，但仍然被许多博物馆与学者所需要。很多中国内陆的朋友更喜欢清代的艺术品，整个清朝时期的文物，因为这让他们感觉与故宫更加靠近，同时也让人们感到与中国过去的四百年更加接近。因此，从某种程度上说，人们收藏这些清代或是明代的艺术品，可以从中了解到皇帝是如何生活的。
所以我们有不同的同事针对不同的专业，从而涉及的领域非常广泛。并不是我一个人在做所有的事情，我的同事们有他们所热爱的领域，并且他们都是师出名校，比如哈佛大学，亚非学院……我们对这些分门别类的艺术品进行研究并将其发布，从而出版有自己的图录。
三水仓：作为世界上最重要、最有名的古董商之一，您能和我们分享一下如何成为一名优秀的从业者么？现如今越来越多的中国年轻人开始从事中国艺术品的交易，您能给这些年轻的古董商以及藏家一些建议么？
埃斯肯纳齐：我的建议是努力工作——专注于自己所做之事，而不仅仅是跟着所谓的“时髦”，或许我用“时髦”这个词有些过，但是中国艺术品本就是严肃而值得尊敬的事物，它不应简单地像时装、饮料、饮食，或者度假那般，成为人们所追逐的“流行趋势”。对于年轻人来说，最为重要的事情自然是学习！并且不要仅仅流于表面地来看待这些艺术品，而后轻易地下定论说，“我喜欢这件，所以我要买下它。”
中国有着很棒的学者，像是陈克伦、马承源……大学者们做出发现和研究，你需要去跟随他们一起学习。像是在上海、西安、北京，都有着很好的博物馆。多多去参观、学习，仔细地去看、去感受那些艺术品，而不是仅仅一味的去到拍卖会或是古董商店进行购买。
你需要为你的购买做好准备，不要操之过急，学习是需要你花时间满满推进的一个过程。人们常常希望快速致富，但这本不该是一门让人快速发家的生意。一旦你犯下错误，那么你所投入的钱则来不得半点侥幸，当你知道了以后也许会很失望。但是你要清楚的知道准备的过程容不得半点马虎——学习、工作、反复不断地去看艺术品。这里需要注意的是，“看”不仅仅是简单地观看，需要你由表及里地渗透其间，从而可以看出为什么这件是真的，而又为什么另一件是假的。
现如今，就瓷器而言，景德镇的从业者可以做出非常精彩的仿品，那么你怎样能够辨别真与伪，两者之间的差异？上海博物馆里面都是真品，没有任何仿造的艺术品，可以先去那里进行研究，而后回去然后渐渐地，给自己积累足够的勇气开始进行购买。人们常常陷入的误区是没有足够的耐心，他们急于购买，然后希望快速形成自己的收藏体系，但事实上不应该如此。
这些是我给年轻一代的一些建议。此外，我非常幸运的是，我遇到了值得信赖的朋友，每当我有问题提出时，他们都会给我帮助，替我解惑。当然，我同样用大量的时间让自己沉浸在维多利亚和阿尔伯特博物馆、大英博物馆、还有其中的大维德藏馆中。在那里，有着无与伦比的收藏，并且这些藏品建成之时，仿作尚未盛行。
你必须非常认真而严肃地对待这些，我认为这是取得进展的不二法门。当然，假使你犯下错误，你必须从中有所体会，要认识到，自己不应该再有任何的借口去犯下同样的二次错误。
三水仓：随着技术的不断更新以及互联网的高速发展，近年来艺术交易的商业模式已经发生了很大的改变。比如，相当一部分的拍卖行都有自己的在线图录，因此，全球的爱好者或是从业者都可以通过网络获得更多的资讯，而不再受时间、空间的制约，这也同样使得艺术品的价格越来越国际化。根据您的过往经验，您是如何看待这个现象呢？
埃斯肯纳齐：我个人并不同意直接的在网上对艺术品进行购买，你不能仅仅通过屏幕，然后说这件不错，我要买下。你为什么仅仅通过图片就进行购买，为什么不亲自去现场观看？无论如何，不管这个拍卖公司是嘉德、保利也好，苏富比或是邦瀚斯也好，你应该去到现场上手这些艺术品，观看并且学习。如果你对它们不确定，你也可以去咨询一些你所信任的学者、专家。而后你需要去博物馆，那些大城市里都会有博物馆。在博物馆反复地观看和比对同类的艺术作品，博物馆鲜有仿品，因为它们成立得很早，那时并没有伪作的干扰。就陶瓷而言，一件仿品分文不值，它仅仅只是一抔粘土而已。因为成本很低，所以即使伪造者或许最初做得不像真品，他们也可以再不断地练习过后，使之做得与真品越来越接近。
因而没有必要告诉造假者他们在制作时所出的错误。当然最终他总会仿到一个完美的状态，然后问世。在真品和仿品之间会有一场持续战斗——所有的假货终将流入市场，从某种程度上而言，这也是我们的错误，因为是公众对仿品的购买而助长了假货的蔓延和产生。这么来说，一件艺术品，如果没有经过观看、研究、学习这一系列的过程，你无需着急购买。短时间内是无法形成一个好的收藏体系的，这需要一个长期的过程。
三水仓：从近期的艺术市场看来，似乎呈现出一个微降的态势，您是怎样看待中国艺术品的全球市场？它们能否依然像以前那样保持稳健的价格。
埃斯肯纳齐：艺术品市场并没有下降，它确实逐步成为另一种投资。艺术品被沦为一种“货币”是一件无奈的事情。这一点我在《中国艺术品经眼录——埃斯肯纳齐的回忆》中有提过。人们投资地产、股票、黄金，还有艺术品——事实上，人们将艺术品视为一种投资是一件非常危险的事情。因为艺术并不是一种供需品，因而不像其他的资产那样可以股权投资。你可能已经知道，卖艺术品并不是一件容易的事情，你应该去享受并且欣赏艺术品所带来的愉悦，而不是想着依靠买卖从中牟利。
三水仓：谢谢！
San Shui Cang: As I know, Eskenazi Ltd started dealing with oriental art since 1920s as a family business. I am curious about what made you and your family interested in this field. Also I read on an article saying when you and your father opened a London office in 1960 and bought in England from the Milan gallery. Milanese taste tended towards Chinese export wares and other decorative pieces at that time. But you were more attracted to earlier pieces, could you tell me what made you so fascinated by the pieces of an older age at that time?
Giuseppe Eskenazi: The company started in Milan, you have to think it is not like in London, Paris, New York or Tokyo. It was more as you said more decorative, more for local market. So their interest in far eastern art is more decorative, more to decorate the house rather than collectors. Collectors began with Italian ambassadors going to Beijing. Very famous people look collectors for collections. However, the public at large were just interested in decorative. This went on nearly until the end of the Second World War, after the war we become more specialized.
And after when I came into it, my interest was in earlier Chinese art. My personal interests are Ming and earlier to begin with and mostly influenced by what I saw in the museums here, particularly Percival David, and my friendship with people like Margaret Medley who was curator of the Percival David.
With my late father, he came to England 1960s to start this company. From 1960s we specialized more and more in early Chinese art. We had exhibitions and catalogues. We were one of the first companies to do catalogues and exhibitions.
But only European painting, drawings, sculptures had catalogues, whether it was Henry Moore or Bacon, or impressionists. Chinese field, there was only Bluett who did some catalogue. We started doing then regularly and inviting people to the exhibitions and selling to museums. Today we had sold over 80 museums all around the world. We specialized by working with scholars and museums.
We have never been to a fair and we do not publicize what we do. We might be a big company, but also a private company. We deal with collectors mostly. We have particularly a very good relationship with far east. We begin with Japan and later more recently with Hong Kong and more recently with mainland.
Giuseppe Eskenazi: There are 11 people working here, so it not just me and there are people with different specialties who enjoy. Unfortunately, Chinese paintings we can not deal. We do not have many around, we only had one or two exhibitions. We are dealing in contemporary ink, but and again my son is doing. I have nothing to do with it.
Our interest is really from Shang bronzes onwards, again there are different people who do this. My own interest is maybe Yuan porcelain. It is not the favorite market. Still it is very museum and scholar need. A lot of people from mainland are interested in the Qing, the whole Qing dynasty. Because it was closer to the Gu Gong and closer to what China was the last four hundred years.
So in a way, they collect that and they can go and see how the emperors lived and particularly the Qing emperors and of course the Ming. So We cover quite a big field, but different people. It is not me covering everything. They have their “pet” subjects, their favorite subjects.
All of them have been to Universities, like, Harvard, SOAS, etc. We research and publish our own catalogues.
Giuseppe Eskenazi: My suggestion is just to work hard and to concentrate on what they are doing and not just to be taken by fashion. Maybe it is a horrible word for fashionable. How can you have a serious art like Chinese art become fashionable. It is a serious art and can not be put down as fashion, like clothing, drinking, eating, or holidaying. That becomes fashionable, but I take Chinese far more serious than just being fashionable. For young people, the important thing is to study. Not to stay superficially to look at things and say I like this and I would like to buy this.
There are great scholars in China, like Chen kelun, Ma chengyuan. Big scholars study and you got to follow. There are great museums in Shanghai, Xi’an and Beijing. Go to the museums and study. Look at things carefully and do not just go to an auction buy something and go to a dealer buy something.
Before that, you got to be prepared. So it takes time to study, you can not do it quickly. People want to become rich quickly, but this is not a business of becoming rich quickly. If you make a mistake, you lose all the money. You know what you do and you get disappointed. But the preparation is really studying and working and looking and looking. Looking is not just looking, it is just seen to be able to penetrated to look carefully why the piece is a fake and why another piece is genuine. They can make wonderful copies in Jingdezhen today and how do you tell the difference. You have to look at one have been in museum for a long time. Shanghai Museum does not have any fakes, they all genuine pieces. Go and study them and then go back and have enough courage to start buying slowly. People are not patient, they want to buy quickly. They want to form collection quickly, but you can not.
So that is my advice for young people. Also I was lucky to have people that I could rely on to ask questions. They answered me and helped me. But I have spent a lot of time at V&A, the British Museum and the Percival David where they have exceptional collection. These things were bought before copies and fakes were made.
You know, you have to approach it seriously. I think that is the only way that you can progress. You make a mistake, you have to learn by your mistake. It is no excuse of making the same mistake again.
Giuseppe San Shui Cang: The business model for art dealing has changed quite a lot in the last few decades with the introduction of new technology and the development of Internet. For example, almost all the auction houses have their own catalogues online. The buyers from all over the world can access the information much easier regardless of time and space, which makes the prices of the art pieces more and more international. How do you feel about this based on your own experience?
Eskenazi: I do not agree that you can buy on the Internet, you have to see the thing. You can not look at the screen and say this is nice and I buy. Why you buy things from pictures, why do not you look at that. Then you should be doing something else. You have to make time to study, whether it is Guardian or Poly or whether it is Sotheby’s or Christie’s. You pick up the thing and you look at it and study it. You are not sure and you ask question for some scholars you trust. And then you go to a museum. There are always museums in all the big cities. You look at the equivalent piece and you see how does it compare. The museums are lucky that they do not have fakes, because the collections were formed a long time ago before fakes and copies were made. To make a fake of a piece of porcelain or pottery, it costs nothing, not even one penny, it is a clay.
You get it wrong, you do it again and again. You can get it as closest as possible. And there is no point to tell the fakers what is wrong. Eventually it is perfection. You know it is a battle continuing between the genuine piece and fakes. All the fakes come to the market. But in a way it is our fault. It is a public fault to encourage to buy fakes. For example, by a piece without seeing it, without examining it, without looking it. You can not buy in a hurry, you can not form a collection in a hurry. It takes a long time.
San Shui Cang: It seems like that the art market are turning down recently because of the economy, what do you think of the global art market of the Chinese art pieces, will it still hold the price as before?
Giuseppe Eskenazi: The art market is not doing down; it has become an alternative investment. Art has become a currency unfortunately. People invest in land, buildings, stocks and shares, gold and art. Art has become a currency and people started to using art an investment and that is very dangerous, because art is not a supply like there is property that you can buy and sell shares. You might have reach a point that it is not easy to sell the art, you should enjoy the art for owning and admiring, not for reselling it for making money.
San Shui Cang: Thank you!
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