《诺曼教授对巴以冲突问题在BBC的访谈》

翻译@流浪者小刀

中穆网选编

诺曼·芬克尔斯（Norman Gary Finkelstein) 是美国著名的政治家，教授和作家。他的主要研究领域是巴以冲突和种族屠杀的政治。他的父母是犹太人大屠杀的幸存者，他毕业于美国宾汉顿大学，并且在普林斯顿大学获得了他的博士学位。以下是他在BBC访谈中与主持人的对话。笔者因翻译水平有限，翻译原文在中文后面。

主持人：诺曼芬克尔斯， 来自纽约的政治学教授和图书《巴以冲突的真相》的作者

问：现在巴以冲突的真相是什么？以色列在这场高伤亡的战争中的真正目的是什么？

答：这场反对哈马斯的袭击的开始是因为哈马斯加入了巴基斯坦的联合政府。

哈马斯接受了由美国和欧盟规定的条款，哈马斯接受了这些条款并统一建立了一个民族联合的政府。

以色列首相内塔尼亚胡充分利用了三个以色列少年被杀害作为借口（我指明这是个借口的原因是没有一个人真正知道谁是幕后操纵这一切的罪魁祸首）来攻击并崩溃联合政府，所以这也给以色列不实行和平协商创造了一个新的借口。

首先以色列人说此次事件无法同巴勒斯坦当局协商因为巴勒斯坦当局不能代表所有的巴勒斯坦人民。

但是如果联合政府当局还是照做，那么这个借口就会被移除。一名以色列政治学家曾经给以色列惊慌失措的反应拟了一个名词，叫作巴勒斯坦人“和平攻势”的恐惧（the fear of a Palestine ‘peace offensive’），因为它减弱了以色列对于不愿进行和平处理的借口的力度。

这只是阶段一，而现在我们进入了阶段二。

以色列政府知道如果它开始进行地面入侵，那么以色列将面临进退两难的局面，因为以色列军队会不可避免面临大量的军队伤亡。

08年到09年以色列在加沙的大屠杀，以色列开展以摧毁一切进入视线的东西来达到避免争斗死亡的目的。

但是如果以色列再一次用同样的手段—摧毁一切视野可见的巴勒斯坦的一切事物，那么国际组织不会允许它这么做 （被主持人问题打断）

3:10-5:10:

Q： 芬克尔斯先生，你指出以色列不愿意和平，但是事实上确实这些以色列人把他们自己看做被哈马斯的火箭弹袭击的对象。哪一个人，在这个世界上的哪一个国家不希望和平不希望平静呢？

诺曼：以色列人想要和平。每一个国家都想要和平。每一个在历史上的挑衅者都想要和平。

但是问题是是哪一种形式的和平？在哪一种条件下的和平？

以色列说他有进行自卫的权利。英国政府和BBC支持它在面对哈马斯的火箭弹袭击而进行自卫的权利。但是以色列现在并没有要求自卫的权利，以色列现在要求的是继续进行占领巴勒斯坦的权利，和继续杀害反对被占领的巴勒斯坦人的权利。

第一个权利是，继续进行军事占领，第二个权利是，继续杀害反对被占领的巴勒斯坦人。

在另一方面，巴勒斯坦人被给予了两个权利，第一个权利是在加沙被封锁的条件下慢慢的死亡，没有任何怜悯，讽刺性的，没有一丝人性的加沙的封锁下慢慢的死亡。第二个权利是在以色列的屠杀下迅速地死亡。

（被主持人的问题打断）

5:10-7:18:

问：芬克尔斯先生，在此次采访之前我们与一名哈马斯的发言代表人谈了话，那名代表人说“我们不承认以色列。”

很多以色列人和以色列官员说“我们应该怎样在一个被武装的群体旁生存，并且我们的领土是在这个武装群体的控制之下，并且这个团体不承认我们生存的权利。”

诺曼：我认为你对我方才的话有些听力上的问题，但是我认为我用英语表达的非常明确。我们可以确定并认同联合政府是被成立的。

哈马斯同意联合政府成立的条件，这些条件是由美国和欧盟所规定的。

所以跟他们协商有什么问题呢？

这个问题是以色列自己不想协商。

这也就是为什么以色列在约旦河西岸（West Bank）因为三个以色列青年被杀害变得狂暴的原因。然后他们逮捕了750名巴勒斯坦人，杀害了11名平民，其中包括4名儿童，并且他们还破坏了百姓的居所。

他们所做的一切的目的就是激起哈马斯的反应，这样一来以色列就可以避免协商。那么现在我问你，如果联合政府之前被成立，并且美国和欧盟同意与联合政府协商，那么什么是阻碍这个解决办法的因素，你说这是因为哈马斯，但是如果你这么说，那么只会把你自己变成以色列的辩护者，因为美国和欧盟都同意与联合政府协商，但是你却是以色列的辩护者？（再次被采访者打断）

7:18-end

问：芬克尔斯先生，我只是提出了以色列的观点，我们并不是选择任何立场来支持或者反对任何一方，我们是非常公平的。你已经写了关于巴以冲突的书并且也在这方面进行了各种研究。那么现在这个局势会对以色列造成什么影响呢？请简要作答。谢谢。

诺曼：如果以色列开展地面侵袭，那么他就不得不摧毁它目之所及的一切事物，因为以色列社会不会容忍争斗的伤亡。

以色列喜欢高科技形式的屠杀，他们不想要一个实际的战争来目睹他们自己的伤亡。

但是以色列没办法摧毁可见的一切东西，因为自从08年到09年的屠杀之后（此次屠杀中1400名巴勒斯坦人被杀害，超过1200人是平民，但是在以色列方卖弄只有13人被杀害，仅有3名是平民）--国际组织不会容忍这样一个血腥战争。而以色列不能阻止哈马斯在没有入侵的情况下的的火箭弹袭击，但是它又不能在没有造成大量人员伤亡和破坏的情况下进行入侵，因为国际组织不会允许。

现在我想重复一下国际特赦组织说的话，首先，需要有一个综合的武力来停止以色列和巴勒斯坦的此次冲突。第二，需要有一个国际战争调查局来负责两边。

第三点，是我自己的建议，不是特赦组织的建议，我认为是最重要的一点—国际协会需要强加对于以色列的制裁直到并且除非要等到以色列同意结束这场冲突之后，并且需要在国际法律的监管之下。

这样一个要求是很简单，很明确，也是不容置疑的。以色列必须在国际法的要求下停止这场冲突。

以色列没有权利每隔几年就用恐怖的‘推草机’的方式来进攻加沙

所以以色列的“推平草丛的方式”必须停止。并且以色列需要服从于制裁直到并且除非它停止以国际法的监督为基础的冲突。

主持人：诺曼 . 芬克尔斯是美国的政治家和图书《巴以冲突的真相图片》的作者，再次感谢你的到来。

 

以下为原文：

Q:

Norman Finkelstein, professor of political science

and author of the book Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, from New York.

What's the reality of the current conflict? What is Israel's goal in this high casualty war?

Norm:

The attack against Hamas started because Hamas joined the Palestinian Unity government.

Hamas had accepted the conditions stipulated by the US and EU.

Hamas accepted these conditions and agreed to form a National Unity government.

Prime Minister Netanyahu exploited the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers as a pretext - - it's a pretext because no one knows who was behind the abduction and killing - - to attack Hamas and break up the Unity government, so as to give Israel a new excuse not to pursue peace negotiations.

At first Israel said it couldn't negotiate with the Palestinian Authority because the PA didn't represent all of the Palestinian people.

But if the Unity government went ahead, then this excuse would have been removed.

An Israeli political scientist once termed this sort of panicky Israeli reaction, the fear of a Palestinian 'peace offensive,' because it eliminates Israel's excuse for not negotiating a settlement.

That was phase one, we are now entering phase two.

The Israeli government knows that if it launches a ground invasion, it will face a big dilemma, because Israeli troops will suffer a large number of casualties.

During the 2008-9 Israeli massacre in Gaza, it destroyed everything in sight in order to avoid combatant deaths.

But if Israel once again tries to destroy everything in sight, the international community won't allow it...[interrupted by question]

3:10-5:10:

Q:

[interrupted by question]

Mr Finkelstein you are pointing out that Israelis don't want peace when in fact it is these Israelis who see themselves as being targets of Hamas rockets which

people, which country in the world doesn't want peace and doesn't want to live in peace and quiet?

Norm:

Israel wants peace. Every country wants peace.

Every aggressor in history wanted peace.

The question is what kind of peace? Peace under what conditions?

Israel says it has a right to defend itself.

The British government and the BBC support this right of self-defense in the face of Hamas's primitive rocket attacks.

But Israel is not demanding the right of self-defense.

Israel is demanding the right to maintain the occupation, and the right to kill Palestinians who resist the occupation.

The first right is, the right to continue the occupation, and the second right is to kill Palestinians who resist the occupation.

On the other side, Palestinians are given two rights, the right to die slowly under the blockade of Gaza, the merciless, cynical, heartless blockade of Gaza,

or the right to die quickly under Israel's murderous assault

[interrupted by question, translator stops]

5:10-7:18:

Q:

Mr. Finkelstein before this interview we had an interview with a Hamas spokesperson

the Hamas spokesperson said 'we don't recognize Israel.'

Many Israelis and Israeli officials say how can we live beside a group that is armed, and has a territory under its control and doesn't recognize our right to

live.

Norm:

I think you're having a problem listening to me, but I think my English is pretty clear.

We can surely both agree that a Unity government was formed.

Hamas agreed to the conditions of this Unity government, conditions that were stipulated by the US and EU.

So what's the problem with negotiating with them?

The problem is Israel doesn't want to negotiate.

This is why Israel went on a rampage in the West Bank after the abduction of the three Israeli teenagers.

They arrested 750 Palestinians, killed 11 civilians, including 4 children, wrecked people's homes.

All this was to evoke a reaction from Hamas, so that Israel could avoid negotiations.

Now I ask you, If the Unity government was formed, and the US and EU agreed to negotiate with the Unity government, what prevented a settlement? You say it

was Hamas. But that just makes you an apologist for Israel, because the US and EU agreed to negotiate with the Unity government. Why are you being an

apologist for Israel? [interrupted by question]

7:18-end

Q: Mr Finkelstein I brought up the Israeli point of view, we are not in a position to take sides, to support or denounce either side, we're an impartial

source. You have written books about the conflict between Israel and Palestine and have worked and researched in this field. This current situation what effect

could it have on Israel? Please answer briefly, thank you.

If Israel launches a ground invasion, it has to destroy everything in sight, because Israeli society won't tolerate combatant casualties.

Israelis like high-tech massacres, they don't want an actual war and to see their own casualties.

But Israel can't destroy everything in sight, because after the 2008-9 massacre -- when 1400 Palestinians were killed, up to 1200 of whom were civilians, while

on the Israeli side 13 were killed, and only 3 were civilians-- the international community will not tolerate such a bloodbath on the part of Israel. Israel

can't stop the Hamas rocket attacks without an invasion, but it can't invade without causing massive death and destruction, which the international community

won't allow.

Here I want to echo what Amnesty International said. First, there should be a comprehensive arms embargo on Israel and Palestine.

Second, there should be an international investigation of the war crimes committed on both sides.

And third--this is my suggestion, not Amnesty's, and it's the most important--the international community should impose sanctions on Israel until and unless

Israel agrees to end this conflict, once and for all, under the terms of international law.

This demand is simple, clear, and unassailable. Israel must end the conflict under the terms of international law.

Israel does not have the right to go into Gaza every few years and - - to use their hideous expression - -'mow the lawn.'

The days of Israel mowing the lawn must end. And Israel should be subjected to sanctions until and unless it ends the conflict on the basis of international law.

Q:

Norman Finkelstein American political scientist and author of the book Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, I thank you for your presence on

this show.

 

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