Interview with Anne-Sophie Mutter
对话安妮·索菲·穆特（上）
By Laurie Niles
It's easy to get a little intimidated by violinist Anne-Sophie Mutter, just looking at the record. At age 45, she has a stunning discography: with 53 composers represented in more than 60 recordings over the last 30 years. Talking with Mutter this week about her new recording of Bach and Gubaidulina, I found her to be personally warm, and passionate about the new works she is bringing to the world.
大家很容易被小提琴家安妮·索菲·穆特的履历所震惊。四十五岁的她有着令人惊叹的专辑目录记录。这周，当和穆特聊到她新专辑里演奏的巴赫和古拜杜丽娜的作品时，我发现她是个很温和的人，她对这张即将问世的新作品非常激动。
Like the rest of us, she is evolving: she spoke of her recent embrace of the Baroque bow for performances of Bach, and how this has opened her to a new kind of intimacy with these works. We spoke about her litany of shoulder rest experiments during her early development as a violinist (wasn't easy for her, either!), of new music and old, of motherhood, and even a little bit about beautiful, sleeveless designer gowns.
和大多数人一样，她也在不断进步：她谈到最近演出巴赫作品时使用了巴洛克弓，这让她对这些作品有了一种新的亲密感。我们还聊到她早年学琴时使用肩垫的经历（这些经历也是很不容易的），我们也谈到了新的老的音乐，谈到她的母亲身份，甚至我们还聊了聊她那些漂亮的无袖礼服。
Laurie Niles: Very few of us get to play a brand-new piece, a world premiere. I wondered how you approach a totally new piece of music -- is it different from your approach to a piece of music that is standard repertoire?
问：很少有人会去首演新的作品，我很想知道你是怎样去理解一首全新的音乐作品的呢？这与理解所谓的标准音乐应该很不一样吧？
Anne-Sophie Mutter: There is common ground, of course, like thoroughly studying all the details. But I feel that with a contemporary piece which has never been played before, you can be more innovative. You are less burdened by certain expectations. With pieces that have been studied and played for the last 250 years, much of what we inherit, in terms of cultural taste, has to do with our subconscious. It's something we just grow up with; it's almost the air we are breathing. Looking at a piece by Bach, for example, it is much more difficult to get away from habits, good and bad.
穆特：当然，就像学习所有的东西一样，它是有共同点的。但我认为，演奏一首没有人演奏过的当代作品更具有创新性，你不会被已有的经验所束缚。而对于那些已经被学习或者演奏长达250年之久的作品，从文化角度来讲，更多是依靠传承下来的一种下意识的演奏方法，这种下意识的东西如同空气般存在，伴随着我们成长。就拿巴赫的某一首作品来说，（演奏它们）我们很难摆脱已经有习惯，好的或者是坏的习惯。
If it's a violin concerto by Gubaidulana, your approach is fresher; it's probably also more objective. Although being subjective is what music needs in order to really bond with an audience. You don't just want to objectificate the notes. But you don't have the burden of history. It's a wonderful luxury, if that's the word, to set the path for future generations and their understanding of that contemporary piece you are bringing to the world.
如果换成古拜杜丽娜的小提琴协奏曲，你的演奏（方式）可以是全新的，或许也会更加客观。尽管从迎合听众的角度来说，主观性是表达音乐的根本需要。你不能仅仅把那些音符客观化，但是你没有（前人的）经验所带来的负担。可以这样说，由你带给世界的这些当代作品能为后人铺路，帮助后人去理解这些作品，这也是一种非常奇妙的体验。
Laurie: Sometimes, particularly as a violinist -- I don't think guitarists have the same thing quite -- there is such history. It can almost be a trap. I remember hearing a performance of yours, of the Beethoven Concerto, and you did something very different with the cadenza. I really enjoyed it, but then I wondered how many people would be...
问： 有时候，尤其是作为小提琴家——我不认为吉他演奏家会有同样的问题——会有如此多的演奏方面的历史经验，这几乎可以说是一个陷阱。我曾经听过你们演奏的贝多芬的协奏曲，在华彩段你用了很不一样的处理，我个人非常喜欢这样的处理，但同时我也在想，其他人是否也会喜欢....
Anne-Sophie: I mean, the only one who will hold you up for that is the composer. The composer is the only person you really have to serve, and whose intentions you always have to keep in mind. But as we know through history, composers have allowed themselves different viewpoints on different evenings and performances -- especially the ones who were the conductors of their own pieces, or performers of their own concerti. There is not one formula.
穆特：我觉得唯一能够将你掌控的是作曲家。作曲家是唯一一个真正需要你为之服务的人，你要时刻记住他们（作曲家）的写作意图。但（音乐演奏）历史告诉我们，作曲家们往往会在不同演奏场合上对曲目有着不同的理解——尤其是指挥家指挥他自己的作品，或者演奏家演奏他自己的协奏曲。这并没有一个固定的标准。
I don't think history is a burden, but it makes us aware of the fact that we should not take interpretations for granted. Interpretations of great masters of the past - they are extremely valuable reference points. Yesterday when I was playing here, a young colleague came and we were discussing Bach solo sonatas. He was working on it and he wanted to know if I could think of a reference recording, and I mentioned the name of Nathan Milstein.
我不认为历史演奏经验会是一种束缚，但我们也不能忽略这些经验，过去那些杰出音乐家对作品的诠释都是非常好的参考。 昨天我在这里演出的时候，一个年轻的同行来和我讨论巴赫的奏鸣曲，他正在练习这个作品，他问我有没有可以推荐的专辑作为参考，我推荐了内森·米尔斯坦（Nathan Milstein）的演奏。
He was probably 15 years old, and he had never heard of of him. I'm rather saddened and shocked to see that this goes across the border, it's no matter which country you are, there's a generation after me which is not aware of the grand masters of the last century; that's extremely disturbing. It's kind of a common disease of the young generation, who seems to think that whatever is out there as a new recording is the ultimate truth.
这个同行大概十五岁左右，但他从没听说过内森·米尔斯坦。不管是在哪个国家， 年轻一代总是会忽略前一个世纪的杰出音乐家，对此我感到十分震惊和伤心，这个也很令人不安。这可能是年轻一代的通病，他们总是觉得新的东西是正确的。
Laurie: There's been whole entire movement, a lot of change in how we approach Bach. If you were to listen to an early 20th century interpretation of Bach, it would be very different than a recent recording.
问：就拿巴赫作品的某一个乐章来说，人们演绎它的方式千变万化。如果你去听20世纪早期的版本，会和近些年的版本很不一样。
Anne-Sophie: Interesting to see how different eras have brought a different focus on pieces which we've known for such a long time. The so-called original instrument movement has certainly brought enlightenment in some parts of the research, if it's only the fact that today we have scores which refer in every little detail of articulation and dynamics to what the composer wanted in the 18th and 19th century.
穆特：长久以来，我们能看到不同年代赋予作品不同的特点，这其实很有趣。如果在现有的乐谱中，那些18世纪和19世纪的作曲家想要表达的关于清晰度和力度变化方面的信息很少，那么，那些所谓的“原始乐章”确实能带来一些启发。
I remember when I started the Mozart concerti, when I was 10, 11, 12. There was no Barenreiter (urtext). You actually had to go to Salzburg, to the archive, in order to find the various different versions of the concerti. Sometimes notes even differ. It's not only a question of the trills, decorations and dynamics, but also articulation. So we really have all the tools at hand, but we shouldn't take that as an easy way out.
我记得，在我十一二岁刚开始练习莫扎他的协奏曲时，当时没有Barenreite（原始文本），只能去萨尔茨堡的档案室去寻找不同的演奏版本。有些标记都不一样，不仅是颤音、装饰音和力度，还有演奏法。因此，即便我们有很多工具在手上，我们也不能简单草率地解决问题。
With tools at hand, I also mean all these CDs out, to hear musicians make a conglomerate of what has worked. It's just exciting to find your own way of looking at a piece, still keeping in mind the stylistic period you have to serve.
因此，即便我们有很多工具在手上，我们也不能简单草率地解决问题。有工具在手，我指有很多CD可以参考，也要整体考量音乐家们是怎样演绎这些作品的。时刻记住作品所属的风格时期，并找到属于自己的（处理因音乐的）方式，这是很有意思的。
In fact, one of the exciting things about playing a contemporary piece, to come back to that, is the fact that finally you have somebody to talk to, and ask questions and get feedback. It's probably the greatest moment, as a musician, is when the composer approves of your understanding of his work. It's such a relief.
话说又回来，其实，演奏当代作品还有一个很有趣的地方，那就是你可以有人讨论，可以提问以及获得反馈。当曲作者认可你的对他的作品的理解时，作为一个人音乐家，这一刻感觉很棒。这个很令人欣慰。
Laurie: Now this is not the first time you have worked with a live composer...
问： 这不是你第一次和在世的作曲家合作了吧？（译者注：这次合作是和古拜杜丽娜，2008年她仍在世）
Anne-Sophie: No, I've been giving world performances for 22 years, if I'm not mistaken. So half my life.
穆特：不是，如果我没有记错的话，已经有22年的首演经历了，占了我生命的一半。
Laurie: What's sort of the common thread when you're working with a modern composer? I'm sure they're all different.
问：你和当代作曲家合作时有没有什么窍门？我想他们应该是都不一样的。
Anne-Sophie: I think that's the common thread! (laughing) I never disturb their work, I never ask for anything in particular. I'm just the receiver. And so far I've been extremely lucky, and I'm endlessly grateful for every single piece I was invited to premiere, because all of them have been extremely special, and there is not one weak composition. That's very rare.
穆特：我想是有的！（笑）我不会扰乱他们的作品，也不会提一些提别的要求，我只是一个接收者。到目前为止我都十分幸运，我对每一个应邀的作品都充满着无限感激，因为所有这些作品都很特别，而且没有瑕疵。这不多见的。
Laurie: That's very true, because you never know what you're going to get when you commission something. Many people really don't understand 20th and 21st century music; they would just as soon listen to the Bach part of your CD and throw the rest away. So I would love to talk about what they are missing if they don't give it a chance.
问：的确如此，因为你不会知道邀请你演奏的那些作品是什么样的。很多人听不懂20世纪和21世纪的音乐，他们只听你的CD中的巴赫那一部分而把其他的放在一边。所以我想问，如果他们都不愿意尝试去听一下，他们会错过什么？
Anne-Sophie: Of course, we cannot generalize, but you are not trying to do that. I just want to point out that I'm not a total and 100 percent fan of everything which has ever been written in modern times, and I don't like everything from the 18th and 19th century either. There are times in the life of a musician, and also of a listener and music lover, where certain periods or certain composers appeal to you more than others.
穆特： 当然会有所失，很难概括，但是你最好不要那么做。我想说，对于现代作品，我也不是百分百喜欢，而且我不喜欢18世纪和19世纪的东西。音乐家生活在属于他们的年代，听众和音乐爱好者也生活在他们自己的年代，因此你对某个时期（的音乐）或者某些作曲家更加熟悉。
I needed long years to understand (Alban) Berg, for example. That always was a difficult composer for me. Eventually the moment was right (to record the Berg concerto), but it just didn't drop into the chair. I had to work for it. I was studying it thoroughly, but I just didn't fall in love with it.
举个例子，我需要花很长时间去理解贝尔格的作品，他的东西对我来说一直比较难。只是时机很对(指录贝尔格的协奏曲)，但这并不表示就能完事了，我还得继续练习。即便我很全面地学习了它，我也没完全喜欢上他的音乐。
And I'm a musician who needs to have the emotional bond with music. Otherwise, if it only stays a cerebral exercise, I don't feel the need to bring it on stage -- because I might not be able to play it in a way which would be good enough, convincing enough, exciting enough, for an audience to really grab it, enjoy it and be inspired by it.
作为音乐家，我需要把自己的情绪和音乐融合在一起。如果只停留在理性地练习层面，我觉得是不能拿上舞台的，因为我不能用足够好，足够有说服力，足够热情的方式去演绎它，从而让听众能够真正被吸引，享受它和被感染。
So Gubaidulina is obviously a composer who has mastered the form. She has so much emotional depth and incredible, unbelievable intensity in her writing and in the way she orchestrates. The wonderful story she tells about conceiving the In Tempus Praesens concerto is that she hears this gigantic sound construction, which she tries to bring to paper, making it transparent, and kind of threading it out... As she's in the process of writing it down, it's fading.
古拜杜丽娜显然是一个很会安排作品结构的作曲家，她在写管弦作品时有宽广的情怀和令人难以置信的情感。在 《In Tempus Praesens concerto》中她讲述了一个美妙的故事，就像一个巨大的声音建筑物，她力图把这个建筑物转化到纸上，让它变得清晰，如同穿针引线一般……随着她写作的过程，它逐渐退去。
She is not able to act fast enough. And what is even more touching is the fact that she says often she hears sounds which there is no orchestra she could give it to. So what she brings to paper probably is only a fraction of what it could be. I tell you, the fraction she brings to paper is hair-raising. It's a life-changing experience, because she doesn't shy away from enormous intensity. Some contemporary composers do, because they feel the need for more of a total objectivity. That's not my cup of tea.
她不能演绎得很快，而且最打动人的地方，用乐队无法表达的声音。因此她写下来的东西可能只是一些片段。但是我告诉你，这些片段足以让人汗毛都竖起来。这是改变生命般的体验，因为她从来不会羞于表达炙热的情感。有一些当代的作曲家比较含蓄（指表达情感不够大胆），因为他们觉得他们需要更多的客观性，这不是我的菜。
I'm a great admirer of Gubaidulina because, very much like Bach, she is able to be a masterful, skillful and extremely sophisticated writer. She has proportion in her mind: relation between the five sections of the violin concerto, for example. This is not a composition which is based on writing things down because they sound lush and gorgeous, no. This is a process of at least three different levels of work.
我非常欣赏古拜杜丽娜，因为她很像巴赫。她是一个非常聪明，非常有技巧，且极其有经验的作曲家。她的脑海中会有构图：比如，小提琴协奏曲中的五个部分的关系。这不是那种为了追求华丽夺目的旋律而写的作品，绝对不是。这个作品至少有三个不同的层次。
First she paints the low and high registers in light and dark colors. This violin concerto is the story of Sophia, the goddess of who in a way is the lonely soul against, if you may, society. Sophia of course is represented by the high registers of the violin, which is the only violin in the orchestral score.
首先，她用低音区和高音区分别描绘明亮和暗淡的色彩。这个小提琴协奏曲讲述了一个关于索菲亚的故事，这个女神用自己孤独的灵魂抵抗着社会。小提琴的高音区旋律代表着索菲亚的形象，这是整个乐谱中唯一的小提琴旋律。接下来听到的是萦绕耳边的暗淡的弦乐，这是乐谱里比较阴郁的部分。
Then you have the dark and kind of haunting strings, which are the dark part of the score. After she lines out the balance between the light and the dark -- the kind of philosophical approach -- then she goes through the pain of putting everything in a formula, which has to do with tempo relations between the five segments. It is actually mathematical, so the relationship to Bach is very apparent.
然后，她找到了明和暗之间的平衡——就像哲学方法一样 --- 接着她用常规的方式来描述痛苦，因为要考虑到这五个片段之间的速度关系，所以必须这么做。其实这就像数学，和巴赫的作品很相似。
But the genius of this piece is that you would never be disturbed by the architecture of the piece, but rather just be totally fascinated by the music. It's still expressivity, but it's music which is written in her language. It is nothing like anything else ever written. Although, of course, she comes from a tradition where she is obviously very much influenced by the music of the 18th and 19th century. But she makes it her own.
但这部作品的天才之处在于，你决不会被它的结构所影响，而是被它的音乐完全吸引。它非常有表现力，整个音乐都是用她自己的语言而写成，尽管她深受18世纪和19世纪音乐的影响，但她用了她自己的方式进行创作。
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